Back to guns- I want someone to tell me why we shouldn't have conceal and carry.

I think this should pass pretty easy if Ardis doesn't loose his appetite for it.

The question is can the city institute it but not the state? As long as Daley and his bunch of "only the criminals can have guns" yesman yahoos are around, good luck with the state getting concealed carry. If we can't have it, I don't think his body guards should either.

Wasn't there a court ruling recently that overturns Chicago's gun ban?

Yeah, but they've instituted a whole bunch of other strict regulations like taking a handgun training course, etc. before buying a gun.

I'd love to live in Chicago for about two months and jump through all their hoops to buy another handgun. The first criminal caught with a gun that hasn't registered it with the city, hasn't taken the class, etc. and isn't charged with those "crimes" like a law abiding citizen would be, I'd sue for billions of dollars in a discrimination lawsuit.

A city can have this law without the state. A city can make an ordinance letting this happen. The constitution says you cannot limit the right to bear arms.

This "ordinance" is not limiting the right- it expands on the rights. Every state will soon have to allow conceal and carry because that is what the DC law and the Chicago law judgement has stated- no state shall limit the right to bear arms. You can put in place a liscence, background check, class, but I really think you can get these taken out if you wanted to.

We have the right to bear arms- there is no place in the constitution that states where, when, how many, what kind of gun we can have. It was intended so that we can defend ourselves against a country or person that threatens our freedom. That means we can defend ourselves against a robber- or a foriegn army coming into the country.

This is one right that if the goverment tries to strip from us- there will be a change of goverment.

Dear Riverman,
love your points.
Look to the left, see the Politics section??
Maybe Political discussion could be in the Politics section, k?

this is a general discussion about guns- not politics. Conceal carry is not political- it is philosophical. No it I posted Democrats want to take your guns away and they should all be shot- then it would be political.

I don't support concealed carry because of the possibility of people like rivermen running around armed, just waiting for the opportunity to let bullets fly "protecting" something.

I don't think that Riverman has said anything at all that would make him appear unstable or irresponsible, Shifty. Not sure why you would say that. He is merely stating his support for the 2nd amendment of the Constitution. Is there a problem?

Good question JnJ. Shifty?

That is usually how anti gun rights people back up thier position- attack people personally and say they are a bunch of gun loving idiots that shoots anything that moves. They don't understand that if you get a concealed permit you have to go through more background checks, foid card, classes, than you do if you drive a car.
The people that are allowed a concealed permit will not be the ones causing the trouble- but the ones that will be making it safer for the general public.
You have people that drive drunk get their liscence back and a able to drive almost immediately- a proven threat to the public- but there is a problem with conceal and carry.

I am probably going to open a can of worms here but what the heck
Usually the same people that are against gun rights are for the right to kill the unborn and against killing mass murderers on death row. Here is my position:

1.I am for gun rights as protected in the constitution.
2.No one shall limit my right to have guns as long as I have a clean record.
3.No one shall have the right to attack me and leave me unable to protect myself.

4.The legal gun owners of america are some of the most responsible people out there. When there is a crime, I would guess 95% or higher are illegal guns- unregistered, or stolen, not someone that has a permit to have them.

God fearing, gun loving, family man- that is what I am.

That is exactly my point. I don't know Riverman, nor do I know 99% of the people around me and my family in public on a daily basis. So why should I be comfortable that those people are mentally stable, capable of using good judgement in the use of a firearm or even capable of using the gun in the first place? Anyone who has a family should have the same concerns, and getting into a shootout with a stranger is an unacceptable answer to this problem.

Just for fun, Superman: [quote]rivermen1 writes:That is usually how anti gun rights people back up thier position- attack people personally and say they are a bunch of gun loving idiots that shoots anything that moves. They don't understand that if you get a concealed permit you have to go through more background checks, foid card, classes, than you do if you drive a car. The people that are allowed a concealed permit will not be the ones causing the trouble- but the ones that will be making it safer for the general public. You have people that drive drunk get their liscence back and a able to drive almost immediately- a proven threat to the public- but there is a problem with conceal and carry. [/quote] You talk about background checks, training classes, foid cards, etc. But earlier on this page, you state: "Every state will soon have to allow conceal and carry because that is what the DC law and the Chicago law judgement has stated- no state shall limit the right to bear arms. You can put in place a liscence, background check, class, but I really think you can get these taken out if you wanted to. So, which is it, we should have these requirements with concealed carry or not? [quote] 1.I am for gun rights as protected in the constitution. 2.No one shall limit my right to have guns as long as I have a clean record. 3.No one shall have the right to attack me and leave me unable to protect myself. [/quote] So, I'll ask you and anyone else who thinks that the 2nd amendment should be interpreted verbatim: What about mentally handicapped individuals? What about convicted felons, even if it wasn't a gun-related crime? What about automatic weapons or grenades, aren't those arms too? In my opinion, the 1st amendment is rightly interpreted as "you cannot shout fire in a crowded theater", and such interpretations are fair for the 2nd as well. You can't have it both ways, either you support a literal reading of the 2nd amendment, or you believe that some interpretation is necessary. [quote] 4.The legal gun owners of america are some of the most responsible people out there. When there is a crime, I would guess 95% or higher are illegal guns- unregistered, or stolen, not someone that has a permit to have them. [/quote] I won't argue with you there, legal gun owners typically are responsible, and that most guns used in crimes are illegal. However, where did the criminal get that illegal gun in the first place? Either they started out as being a legal gun owner and then abused the privilege, or they stole the gun or obtained it from someone who did. Who did they steal the gun from? Someone who was likely a responsible gun owner whos home or vehicle was burglarized, either way, someone who had a legal right to buy the gun in the first place. Which is my second point, the more guns on the street, even in the possession of legal, responsible owners, the more likely criminals will obtain them. It's statistical fact. Whether by thievery, careless handling by the legal owners, or simply by it being much easier to obtain guns "legally" due to lightened registration requirements. There's only three reasons that I can believe that anyone supports concealed carry: 1. They are thinking of good ol' Uncle Jim having a concealed carry permit, not the unstable part-time-crackheads sitting at the corner bar, just waiting for an excuse to start firing. 2. They have dreams of being John Wayne or Dirty Harry and saving the day sometime in their life. 3. They honestly think that concealed carry will impact crime levels, which it might, but it will also impact the level of innocent bystanders.

Nice wall of text there, ****ing formatting sucks.

Somehow you have it in your mind that someone with a concealed gun is going to start shooting anyone that gives a wrong look. We are not thugs, gansters, or crazy trash.

The goverment has given you the right to drive the most dangerous murder weapon ever known to man- a car.

Have you every heard of the black market. That is where most criminals get the guns. The black market is driven primarily by drug dealers. The bring alot of these guns over the border. Alot of them are stolen- but alot of them are purchased in Mexico and brought in.

Just ask Australia and England what happens when you take guns off the street.

Australia: Readers of the USA Today newspaper discovered in 2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%.

Canada: After enacting stringent gun control laws in 1991 and 1995, Canada has not made its citizens any safer. "The contrast between the criminal violence rates in the United States and in Canada is dramatic," says Canadian criminologist Gary Mauser in 2003. "Over the past decade, the rate of violent crime in Canada has increased while in the United States the violent crime rate has plummeted." 3

England: According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its draconian gun ban in 1997.4

Over the last 70 years, Europe has averaged about 400,000 murders per year, when one includes the murders committed by governments against mostly unarmed people.17 That murder rate is about 16 times higher than the murder rate in the U.S.18

Less guns does not less to less violence- only more because the criminal knows there is no resistance.

If you ask me the foid card is a good thing for background checks- and it does not limit gun ownership for non-criminal purposes which in subsection 1a of the constitution notes for gun rights.

So you seem to attack me like I am stupid for my views but I give you facts- please give me FACTS to back up your reasoning.