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Geithner and the privilege of being American
By: bigluke23
Feb 29, 2012 - 11:10 am
Last week Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner said that the "most fortunate Americans" should pay more in taxes for the "privilege of being an American." One can debate different ways of balancing the budget. But Mr. Geithner's argument highlights an unfortunate and very destructive instinct that seems to permeate the Obama administration about the respective roles of citizens and their government. His position has three problems: one philosophical, one empirical, and one logical.

Philosophically, the concept that being an American is a "privilege" upends the whole basis on which America was founded. Privileges are things granted to one individual by another, higher-ranking, individual. For example, in my house my children's use of the family car is a privilege. One presumes Mr. Geithner believes that the "privilege" of being an American is granted by the presumably higher-ranking, governing powers that be.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204653


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Re: Geithner and the privilege of being American
By: Mahkno
Feb 29, 2012 - 11:40 am
Being an American citizen is a granted status... so yes it is a privilage that can be given, denied, or even taken away. It doesn't really upend anything. That is how the current legal system is set up. There is no God given inalienable right of citizenship.

If you really want to delve into history, when this country was founded being a citizen meant owning property, being male, and white. That was really all there was to it. There was no oath of allegience, no being 'illegal' per se, no green cards, no English language requirement. You showed up on these shores, bought/stole/claimed some land and tada you were as much a citizen as any other white male land owning resident. Lots a of folks were denied and refused citizenship too. You can probably deduce who they all were.



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Re: Geithner and the privilege of being American
By: bigluke23
Feb 29, 2012 - 11:41 am
Mahkno writes:
Being an American citizen is a granted status... so yes it is a privilage that can be given, denied, or even taken away. It doesn't really upend anything. That is how the current legal system is set up. There is no God given inalienable right of citizenship.

If you really want to delve into history, when this country was founded being a citizen meant owning property, being male, and white. That was really all there was to it. There was no oath of allegience, no being 'illegal' per se, no green cards. You showed up on these shores, bought/stole/claimed some land and tada you were as much a citizen as any other white male land owning resident. Lots a of folks were denied and refused citizenship too. You can probably deduce who they all were.



If you're born in the US, your citizenship can't be taken away...I'm not sure what you're getting at here.


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Re: Geithner and the privilege of being American
By: Mahkno
Feb 29, 2012 - 11:45 am
bigluke23 writes:
Mahkno writes:
Being an American citizen is a granted status... so yes it is a privilage that can be given, denied, or even taken away. It doesn't really upend anything. That is how the current legal system is set up. There is no God given inalienable right of citizenship.

If you really want to delve into history, when this country was founded being a citizen meant owning property, being male, and white. That was really all there was to it. There was no oath of allegience, no being 'illegal' per se, no green cards. You showed up on these shores, bought/stole/claimed some land and tada you were as much a citizen as any other white male land owning resident. Lots a of folks were denied and refused citizenship too. You can probably deduce who they all were.



If you're born in the US, your citizenship can't be taken away...I'm not sure what you're getting at here.



Native Americans (indians) who have lived on these shores for centuries did not receive citizenship until 1924. African Americans didn't get their citizenship until 1866, and arguably were denied it up until the civil rights movement. Chinese Americans, 1898 via a court decision.


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Re: Geithner and the privilege of being American
By: bigluke23
Feb 29, 2012 - 11:48 am
Mahkno writes:
bigluke23 writes:
Mahkno writes:
Being an American citizen is a granted status... so yes it is a privilage that can be given, denied, or even taken away. It doesn't really upend anything. That is how the current legal system is set up. There is no God given inalienable right of citizenship.

If you really want to delve into history, when this country was founded being a citizen meant owning property, being male, and white. That was really all there was to it. There was no oath of allegience, no being 'illegal' per se, no green cards. You showed up on these shores, bought/stole/claimed some land and tada you were as much a citizen as any other white male land owning resident. Lots a of folks were denied and refused citizenship too. You can probably deduce who they all were.



If you're born in the US, your citizenship can't be taken away...I'm not sure what you're getting at here.



Native Americans (indians) who have lived on these shores for centuries did not receive citizenship until 1924. African Americans didn't get their citizenship until 1866, and arguably were denied it up until the civil rights movement.



I understand that, but bottom line is, if you're born in the US, your citizenship is a right, not a privilege. It can't be taken away unless you do a voluntary act, such as join a foreign country's military, etc.

The point I am most interested in in this column is towards the end...why should only a portion of Americans pay more for the "privilege" of being an American citizen?


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Re: Geithner and the privilege of being American
By: Mahkno
Feb 29, 2012 - 11:57 am
Do you think that people who are successful, wealthier, better off in general, have a moral obligation to give back to the community in some fashion? The greater the success the more that is expected?


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Re: Geithner and the privilege of being American
By: crodseth
Feb 29, 2012 - 12:03 pm
Mahkno writes:
Do you think that people who are successful, wealthier, better off in general, have a moral obligation to give back to the community in some fashion? The greater the success the more that is expected?



No.


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Re: Geithner and the privilege of being American
By: Pock
Feb 29, 2012 - 12:07 pm
bigluke23 writes:
if you're born in the US, your citizenship is a right, not a privilege. It can't be taken away unless you do a voluntary act, such as join a foreign country's military, etc.



The Government is assassinating American Citizens, who also "had" a "right" to trial. In this day and age, what is a right and what isn't is blurred.


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Re: Geithner and the privilege of being American
By: Pock
Feb 29, 2012 - 12:20 pm
Mahkno writes:
Do you think that people who are successful, wealthier, better off in general, have a moral obligation to give back to the community in some fashion? The greater the success the more that is expected?



Mahkno,

Yes and No.

If I was extremely wealthy, would I make contributions to charities (exceeding of course the typical amounts I pay now) Sure, I'd do that.

Do I support an increase of tax on "just" the rich? No.

If Taxes need to go up, they should go up across the board. Every American should feel the weight of their government. Maybe then they'd pay attention.


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Re: Geithner and the privilege of being American
By: bigluke23
Feb 29, 2012 - 12:35 pm
Pock writes:
Mahkno writes:
Do you think that people who are successful, wealthier, better off in general, have a moral obligation to give back to the community in some fashion? The greater the success the more that is expected?



Mahkno,

Yes and No.

If I was extremely wealthy, would I make contributions to charities (exceeding of course the typical amounts I pay now) Sure, I'd do that.

Do I support an increase of tax on "just" the rich? No.

If Taxes need to go up, they should go up across the board. Every American should feel the weight of their government. Maybe then they'd pay attention.



I don't agree with a lot of what you say, pock...but this is spot on. Kudos to you


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Re: Geithner and the privilege of being American
Feb 29, 2012 - 07:18 pm
Ronald Reagan essentially said the same thing as Geithner:

"We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy. [...] Do you think the millionaire ought to pay more in taxes than the bus driver or less?"

and Jesus said (Luke 12:48)
From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.



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Re: Geithner and the privilege of being American
By: bigluke23
Feb 29, 2012 - 07:20 pm
joepyeweed writes:
Ronald Reagan essentially said the same thing as Geithner:

"We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy. [...] Do you think the millionaire ought to pay more in taxes than the bus driver or less?"

and Jesus said (Luke 12:48)
From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.



That's not more or less the same as what Turbo Tax Tim said...the way he worded it sounds like the rich should pay more as a privilege to be an American, while almost half the country pays nothing. Shouldn't everyone have to pay something for the "privilege" of being an American?

And using Jesus to argue for a tax increase didn't work for Obama, and it won't work here, just sayin.


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Re: Geithner and the privilege of being American
By: Mahkno
Feb 29, 2012 - 07:30 pm
To say that the other half isn't paying taxes is not true. They pay sales tax. They pay property taxes either directly or indirectly. They pay payroll taxes. They may well be paying state taxes too. To say they are not not being taxed just is not true. As a percentage of their income, that burden may well be above Romney's.


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Re: Geithner and the privilege of being American
Feb 29, 2012 - 07:36 pm
bigluke23 writes:
That's not more or less the same as what Turbo Tax Tim said...the way he worded it sounds like the rich should pay more as a privilege to be an American, while almost half the country pays nothing. Shouldn't everyone have to pay something for the "privilege" of being an American?



I don't think Geithner said anything about expecting poor people to pay nothing. What's pathetic is that half the country isn't making enough money to pay income taxes. What we should focus on is increasing employment and increasing the salaries of the working poor, so that they can earn enough to pay taxes.

The earned income tax credit is a conservative idea. I find it amusing that the republicans keep pointing out that half the country pays nothing... well it was a republican tax reform that set it up that way...

And the poor people who pay no federal income taxes are paying plenty of local and state sales taxes and mft; such that they are already paying a larger percentage of their income in taxes than most who qualify to pay income taxes.

The current president's administration is asking to return to previous tax rates (about 3 or 4 % increase, which is still considerably lower than historical tax rates), in the name of fiscal responsibility. But that is labeled as class warfare / or socialism. I never heard anyone complaining about class warfare or socialism in the nineties before that tax rate was lowered.

And this is a broken record: If the effin fools hadn't spent like a drunken sailors after they cut the taxes, we wouldn't need to raise the taxes now. Its their fault, now they need to fix it.


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Re: Geithner and the privilege of being American
By: bigluke23
Feb 29, 2012 - 08:49 pm
From the article:


According to the Census Bureau, the share of income received by the top 5% of American households is now 21.5%, up from 21.4% in the 1990s. Their share of income taxes has risen to 59% under President Obama from 52% under President Clinton. This despite the fact that the top tax rate was five points higher in the Clinton years.

If you go further back to the pre-Reagan days, when the top tax rate was 70%, the story becomes even more dramatic. Under the four presidents of that era, the income share of the top 5% was 16.8% and their share of the income tax was 36%. In other words, the share of income received by the top 5% has risen 28% and their share of income taxes has risen 64%.

Stated differently, based on the data provided by the Census Bureau and the Internal Revenue Service, the relative tax burden of the top 5% of American earners compared with the remaining 95% has grown from roughly three-to-one prior to 1980 to almost six-to-one today.



The top 5% make 21.5% of the money, but pay 59% of the income taxes. I would say they're already doing enough.

As far as the bottom 95% goes, yes, they pay other taxes besides income taxes, but one can surmise the top 5% pays more in sales tax, property taxes, etc.

And to be in the top 5% of households, in 2009, which is the last year I can find data for, you had to make $180,000 a year, which in the grand scheme of things, isn't a huge amount of money.


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Re: Geithner and the privilege of being American
By: crodseth
Feb 29, 2012 - 11:34 pm
These kinds of discussions come up only because the government is spending us into the poorhouse.

If the government was fiscally responsibly, rich people could keep their tax loopholes, poor people could keep their EIC, and everyone would be happy.


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